95 2.5 Idles Erratically Then Stalls at Operating Temperature

Cae08

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Joined
Jan 4, 2022
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Location
Georgia
So I have a 95 2.5L with some electrical issues. Within the first 10 minutes of running the engine on a 70 degree day, the thing runs perfectly. After the engine warms up and sometime after entering closed loop, the engine starts idling erratically (1500RPM -> 200 -> 2000 -> 700 rich -> stalls). Attached is a video to give a visual and audio. I have repeated this enough that I am certain it is related to temperature and something warming up and failing.

So far, I have replaced
  • TPS
  • MAP
  • Ignition Coil
  • O2 Sensor (Tested, not replaced)
  • Fuel Pump
  • Probably some other things I'm not remembering.
Next on my list is the distributor. Any other sensor y'all can think of? After the distributor, I'm probably going to start checking wires.

Thanks in advance!
 

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  • IMG_6465.mov
    10.5 MB
Spray cleaner in the idle control valve in the throttle body. It might be sticking when warm.
Also check your fuel pressure at the fuel rail to see if there's any changes during the rough idle.
A compression check wouldn't hurt. You can usually borrow all the test gauges for free at a local auto parts store.
 
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So I did what you guys recommended to no avail. The codes don't spit anything out either.

However, I have narrowed the field to the Charging Circuit.

Note that I have installed an external voltage regulator, but these issues were present before I installed it and the circuit was still connected to the PCM.

I found that when I unplug the voltage regulator, which keeps the battery from charging, the issue goes away.
If I plug in the the regulator, reinserting the alternator into the charging circuit, the issue starts back up.
I changed the alternator today, and it did not fix the problem, but disconnecting the voltage regulator while the vehicle was running stopped the issue instantly. I found this by accident but have no idea what direction to go. Literally there are 5 wires on this circuit.

1. Battery Positive to alternator
2. Ground to alternator
3. Ground to regulator
3. Field positive from alternator to regulator
4. Field negative from alternator to regulator

All of the normal charging circuit components, such as the auto shutdown relay, fuel pump relay, etc..., are all isolated from this circuit.

When I disconnect Field Positive, the problem goes away, but the alternator also stops charging the battery. The problem only happens when the engine is at operating temp.

I've been in contact with the local Jeep Guru who used to be the shop foreman at a Jeep dealership and he has never seen anything like it.

Any advice is much appreciated.
 
I had the same issue and it ended up being a broken wire that went to the alternator. Check the wires coming from the alternator especially in the section at the engine harness where it makes the bend to the alternator. That is where I found mine.
 
So I did what you guys recommended to no avail. The codes don't spit anything out either.

However, I have narrowed the field to the Charging Circuit.

Note that I have installed an external voltage regulator, but these issues were present before I installed it and the circuit was still connected to the PCM.

I found that when I unplug the voltage regulator, which keeps the battery from charging, the issue goes away.
If I plug in the the regulator, reinserting the alternator into the charging circuit, the issue starts back up.
I changed the alternator today, and it did not fix the problem, but disconnecting the voltage regulator while the vehicle was running stopped the issue instantly. I found this by accident but have no idea what direction to go. Literally there are 5 wires on this circuit.

1. Battery Positive to alternator
2. Ground to alternator
3. Ground to regulator
3. Field positive from alternator to regulator
4. Field negative from alternator to regulator

All of the normal charging circuit components, such as the auto shutdown relay, fuel pump relay, etc..., are all isolated from this circuit.

When I disconnect Field Positive, the problem goes away, but the alternator also stops charging the battery. The problem only happens when the engine is at operating temp.

I've been in contact with the local Jeep Guru who used to be the shop foreman at a Jeep dealership and he has never seen anything like it.

Any advice is much appreciated.
If you have the field hooked to PCM, why the external regulator. The field is determined by the equation 14.5 VDC-battery voltage.
 
check engine lamp is glowing, if the flash codes are dead , that means the ECU is messed up. It must flash codes on demand.
99% of those failures ECU are just bad caps on the ECU, a $5 fix using Nichicon caps only , LOW ESR from mouser.com (wholesale distrib)
you have many problems here with this car. not just 1. so that is hard,
free manual is here, our site.

first off all those words on the ALT and not one voltage test across the battery using real DMM meter, not the funky dash VM.
13 to 15vdc is the range.
if voltage falls near 10v the ECU goes MAD, (regs inside drop out and self reboots endless, chaos) 13vdc is min, 13vdc, is the battery FLOAT voltage.
The manual for the car is free and all alternator tests are there.
I can name 100 causes for the 2.5L MPI to stall, sure can, or I do up to 10 tests using tools,meters and hand gauges to find it.
I call this GUE$$S or TEST , what you want to do is not told nor if buying tools is in the cards or not, if not guessing is the game.

the HOT RPM hunting means the ECU is stuck on LIMPHOME mode (CEL GLOWS!), as all do in the mode the idle regulation via IAC is not on LINE.
The flash codes most work. sorry but that is a fact.

blinked out , DTC ODB1, 2 digit flash codes(DTC), like Morse code is but not the same. no 2 cars made then have the same OBD1 codes, this is JEEP codes only.
The CEL glowing is the problem
The CEL (Mil/ses) lamp glows if a major sensor is dead, shorted ,open,missing or dead as a door nail. that is all OBD1 does is report things dead.
unlike wonderful OBD2. we all know so well.
There is no EGR here (unless engine swapped alien) so no EGR stuck open and stalls. (main EGR is not there 1995)
dead ECT
dead 02 or shorted.
Dead MAP
Dead TPS.
CMP failing or CKP failing. (2 sensors cam/crank)
12vdc is really 10v or lower, ECU goes DEAD (offline actually)not dead dead.
A142 overload detected.

Try new caps in the ECU or learn the key on 3 times trick first. learn this trick in the manual so is not really a trick but sure does seems like it is , first time seen to most folks. (practice first before car fails.)learn the test. key on 3 times. (even my newer jeeps do it)

The ECU wants to tell you why it is failing, (it or the sensors. etc) wires shorted inputs to the ECU too will do it.
if it shuts down, the first think I do is see if the ASD relay did that, swap horn and ASD relay to see if HORN relay cures it, most times not.
The ASD drops out for
all outputs of ASD overloaded, the ECU measure the load, and if to much shuts it down, this is to stop engine fires. ok, by law too DOT.
1 of 4 injectors short out hot.
the O2 sensor wires shorted (heater) and ASD drops.
the ASD sees (a142 wire) to ALternator is shorted the ASD drops off line, engine stalls fast, all spark and fuel ends at ASD DROP.
the book free shows, how A142 wires is connected. all things on the 1 wire must not short.(overload.)
as you see I know my ECU's well. even 0bd1,
In can talk on this subject all day.

here is the a142 page I made to make it more easy. (I use a voltmeter on A142 to see if it drops just before the stall)



here is all we need on ASD see why it drops? the drawning is complex as is the functions of ECU. (to prevent fuel fires,crash and burn)

ASD-TESTING.JPG
 
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if you unplug the ALT connector, (dont drive) but keep battery charger on line to the battery
does the stall , not HAPPEN NOW pin 2 not connected. ??????
HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

pin 2 must not short. on GEN
the PCM controls charging via pin 1.
pin 2 is the dead alternator excition pin, this pin goes hot 12vdc at key on ASD closes
this allows the PCM go control the GEN at all time even cranking, it may hold the gen off line until the engine starts.
if pin 2 shorts, ASD see that, and is gross overload, and shuts it all down.
after all why blow up a good ECU ? with shorted GEN pin 2. no that be bad.
also the 2 parallel 50amp fuses. both must be good. are they? in the PCD.
I dont make the rules , i only follow them.
Learning how it works is a huge plus.

gen.JPG

some cars (never jeeps I lie) have wrong generator installed.
make sure all that is correct and not wired wrong or shorted wires on A142 , the 02 sensors love to short A142 , for sure the 02 engine clamp keeping the
O2 wires from hitting the red hot manifold, like endless we see or the heater inside the O2 is shorted. dang, never rare that.
:cool:
the pin2 is hidden way far deep behind the alternator. not easy to disconnect for testing,
 
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asd drop cuts ,spark , injectors and the fuel pump all at the same time.
no crash and burn is the #1 goal. gas cars love to burn , fuel leaking
one way is using wrong injector seals, saving a buck and car burns to the ground.
yes a bad spark coil drops the ASD, primary shorted, or its silly wires. shorting.
that is the why, so now find out what caused ASD to drop by removing A142 loads or new spark coil ,new ASD relay. new 02,
drive with the 02 unplugged yet?> hummmmmmmmmmmm super common fail this.
the hard case is 1 or 4 injectors shorting only hot.

step one on all cars, make sure all fuses are good. nor wrong amp rated, not spec.
not loose or like this.
or damaged fuses, what could be more simple, this, 2 fuse boxes. cab/eng.bay
I worry that ECU flash codes are dead. and CEL glow. running, (the ECU is not happy at all) it is a cry for help for sure !!!

fuse-is-first.JPG
 
lets say you get the blink codes working (keyon 3time trick)
what are the codes
here is my list unified 87 to 95 (96 usa is OBD2)98 up canada.

pasted

ACCESSING DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODES
A stored Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) can be dis-
played by cycling the ignition key On-Off-On-Off-On
within three seconds and observing the malfunction (one book says 3 seconds other says 5) all 3 in 3 seconds is not easy.
indicator lamp. This lamp is displayed on the instru-
ment panel as the CHECK ENGINE lamp (Figs. 5 or
6).
They can also be displayed through the use of the
Diagnostic Readout Box (DRB) scan tool. ( there are some tools sold over the counter, back then that can do OBD1 this car but are not sold now)
The DRB
connects to the data link connector in the engine
compartment (Figs. 7 or 8). For operation of the
DRB, refer to the appropriate Powertrain Diagnostic
Procedures service manual.

CODES
DTC
12- BATTERY FAILED, OR REMOVED./
55- EOC END OF CODES. FLAG<<< this is not any kind of error ever. it means end of message.end of list.only.
List of codes/standard meanings:


11: No ignition reference signal detected during cranking (bad hall effect) OR timing belt skipped one or more teeth; or intermittent loss of either camshaft or crankshaft position sensor (sorry ours is chain cam drive) CMP or CKP errors. I means the ECU can not see the crankshaft spin.
12: Memory Standby power lost (Battery or computer recently disconnected) (this erases stored codes)
13: No change in Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (MAP) from start to run, dead MAP?
14: MAP sensor circuit open or shorted; voltage too low
15: No speed/distance sensor signal (VSS dead), see MPH dead? cluster?
16: Loss of battery voltage detected with engine running
17: Engine stays cold too long (bad thermostat)
21: Oxygen sensor o2 signal out of range, possibly shorted !!
22: Coolant sensor signal out of range (or disconnected to set timing)
23: Intake air temperature signal out of range (IAT)
24: Throttle position circuit out of range,.TPS
25: Automatic Idle Speed (AIS) motor driver circuit shorted or target idle not reached, vacuum leak found (IAC named newer car)
26: Peak injector circuit voltage has not been reached
27: Logic module fuel circuit internal problem or TBI injector does not respond properly to control signal
31: Evaporator Purge solenoid circuit open or shorted or Evaporator solenoid circuit.
32: EGR system failure or Power loss lamp open or shorted (ENDED 1991)
33: Air conditioning clutch relay circuit open or shorted ( Also will show up for rigs without AC)
34: Speed control vacuum or vent solenoid circuits open or shorted(means CRUISE controls messed up.)
35: Cooling fan relay circuit open or shorted (none on a 1995)
36: Wastegate control circuit open or shorted,TURBO. DREAMS<< export models?
37: Shift indicator light failure, 5-speed (blown bulb) OR Park/neutral switch failure OR Torque converter unlock circuit open or shorted, A-413 4-speed auto
41: Alternator field control circuit open or shorted (wow smart) very serious.
42: Automatic shutdown relay circuit open or shorted(OR OVERLOADED) ASD pin A142 overloaded or shorted.<<<<<<
42: Fuel pump relay control circuit (and ASD)
42: Fuel level unit - no change over miles OR Z1 voltage missing when auto shut-down circuit energized
43: Peak primary IGNITION coil current not achieved with max dwell time OR Cylinder misfire
43: Problem in power module to logic module interface
44: No FJ2 voltage present at logic board OR Logic module self-diagnostics indicate problem OR Battery temperature out of range
45: Turbo boost limit exceeded (engine was shut down by logic module)
46: Battery voltage too high during charging or charging system voltage too low, bad ALT?
47: Battery voltage too low and alternator output too low
51: Oxygen sensor stuck at lean position (bad O2 or exh. leaks near by) OR Internal logic module fault ('84 turbo only)
52: Oxygen sensor stuck at rich position (bad 02) OR Internal logic module fault ('84 turbo only)
53: Logic module internal problem
54: No sync pickup signal during engine rotation (turbo only) OR Internal logic module fault ('1984 turbo only)
55: End of codes (most)


outside USA with odd engines there. not sold here.
61: "Baro" sensor open or shorted
62: EMR mileage cannot be stored in EEPROM
62: PCM failure SRI mile not stored
63: Controller cannot write to EEPROM
64: Catalytic converter efficiency failure
65: Power steering switch failure


now read this,
the tool to buy used is this tool seen 2003 to ? (I have one)
top quote online.:
I got the Actron CP9145 six or so years ago for my 94 ZJ. Besides reading and clearing codes, it let you read all the sensors (temperature, vacuum, oxygen etc) the PCM has access to. It also give you some of the calculated values such as injection length and ignition timing. There is an actuator test were you can fire injectors/ ignition coil and test relays without the engine running.
It does not talk to the transmission nor the ABS module. It needs a special OBD1 cable to fit the Jeep (OBD1 is custom on jeeps)

if comms fail too with tool above, the ECU is sick or battery near dead. (fuse blown)
using this tool, 2nd choice after key on 3times fails.

The Blink codes must work
The CEL glowing tells you running , DTC are stored.
key on CEL glows and goes out (PCM CEL self test for the lamp , then you crank , then start and run and CEL must not glow.
my guess is code 42, , very common.
 
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the stall can be temp, related, or time, or vibration related.
Yes some electronics do fail hot. (seems the ECU did)<< only 1 clue it might. blink codes dead. DTC stored.
bad wiring , loose , frayed, rusty. or damaged.
we don't know until tests are done.
you can spend 3 days labor inspecting every EFI related wires in the car. are the 02 wires burned up?
right now I am trying to find my cluster wiring error pin10. and will but is a pain to remove, it. left rear connector is hard to unsnap.
the lamp is good but wires(conn) failed me.
does it fail if you flex by hand running the main harnesses 1 by1 in the engine bay, just last week the guy flexed the coil (funny U conn) and it stalled
our 95 has no such crazy connector on the coil.
food for thought, my thesis on stalls.
ask questions, or ask now to test.
guessing well GOOD LUCK there.
 
one more tip on the 3 times on/ off
if you fail to keep the key on long enough it fails.
it is tricky for sure, this timing, take your time,
I think (not sure) the key on until the dash lamps go stable.
then key off. ,3rd time on, it will flash. (cel glows running) it now flashes DTC errors.(codes)

The other evidence, to gather (on all stalls)
are:

  • at the stall did other electrical things to dead at that instant? Head lamps dimmed, radio died, dash blower dies or is weak blow? or other things?
  • Is CEL lamp glowing , at run time, , get the DTC codes to see what failed. ( seems ECU is not working) flash codes dead. not a good sign.
  • are the spark plugs tips wet or dripping. with fuel, Oil, Antifreeze, or carbon fouled out.? Tip inspections can help
  • how long does it take to start again,? and when not wanting to restart try 5% throttle pedal to start now? IAC stuck closed?
  • battery voltage running never drops below 13vdc?
  • if flooding stalls, and wet spark plugs , use WOT cranking to clear the flood. (magic un-flood mode works)
  • Do all Alternator tests pass.
  • does it start correctly if jumper cables are added to the mix. (a class jump start)
  • See if ASD relay does drop out. running or cranking.
  • the center of my dash the right side meter is VOLTS. did it go below 13v? at 10v the PCM goes mad. (a crude meter, a real DMM is far better)
  • as car stalls , parked or moving does a fast right foot delay or prevent the stall? (IAC never cleaned ? of gunk on it?)

the alternator has 4 wires,
1 huge ground wire.
1: huge Main charge wire to battery Plus lug ,
1 tiny wire A142 excitation power feed rear called pin 2. (if this wire shots, ASD relay goes off line , and engine has no spark nor fuel now.)
1 tiny wire to PCM is the PCM pin1 regulation wire. (this is PCM WPM modulation for the rotor coil of ALT)
any off them for bad connection the ALT is now a useless brick door stop

Evidence and tests RULE ! With evidence we can stop guessing or learn what is the next test to hone in on the REAL cause (can be even 2 or 3 )
yes a loose wire can do this. (means grounds too)
yes a rusty wire (means corrosion) can do this or a pin.
 
the gen/alt rear
has this , it prevents connecting pins 2/3 backwards.
Pin 2 must not ever short. or ASD goes OFF LINE (stalls)
hope the helps. the main harness here is hardwired to C120 below. YJ. the 2 nuts on mine 2/3 love to rust . (#1 is the harness wires bundled)
1702476305676.png
 
Great info about the ECU and faults. I'm lucky not to have any problems and made every effort to clean every electrical/fuse connection ihad access to during my YJ overhaul. 30 years of vibration and corrosion takes a toll.

I want whatever coffee you have :)
Cheers